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I just wanted to get peoples thoughts and comments on the latest blood angels codex?

Having played the game for a long time - I'm actully a litte disappointed with this codex because I think they have made Blood angels too good (and this is coming from someone that has access + can use them). They made the nids really good now too - but at least to be good it costed you points.

Granted - you can argue that most things have their downsides in every unit however, in my view, any experienced player comes up with an army where the units compliment themselves. The blood angels can have combinations that makes them very hard to cope with and for cheap unit prices.

Here are some examples of some overpowered but relatively cheap aspects of the army for what it does:

Feel no pain thunderhammer and storm shield terminators (Sang priest only costing you 50 points and is an Ind character - so can be attached). The classc way of getting rif of these boys is with lots of lascannons if you're lucky enough to be a guard player of shoot lots of bolter - type shots at them. Now that the latter is not a very good option, your ThunderHamm termies with almost guarntee to absorb alot of long range firepower as you move them up the board (all for 275 with the sang priest - bargain!) - whch leaves your storm raven/rhinos/baal preds etc to mow up relatively unscathed and deal out punishment.


Death company - they are essentially the same as Khorne marines with 1 less leadership (which doesn't really matter as they are fearless anyway) but have feel no pain and are relentless (bolter hail then charge!) - oh and you can give them as many power fist upgrades as you want - oh they can have jump packs to....... all for LESS than a Khorne marine (Khorne beserker = 21pts, Death comp=20). The only disadv is they have 'rage', but to be honest most players will put them in a gunship or L.Raider (maybe on deep strike!) and get to choose the engagement anyhow.

Baal predators. - oh my god! If I'm reading the rules correctly - then with flame storm cannnons for only 115 points (!!!) I can scout move before the game begins flat out 18" to be just 12" away from hs troops (and I will start them off sitting rght opposite the opponents trees/ruins where he will have to put his devastators or equivalent - otherwise leaving them in the open to get shot to bits by other things). On my first go, having already moved a good way up the board, move anther 12" right upto his troops in cover (or not) and flame them with S6 AP3 no cover save auto hits. Thus - if I have first go I get a 30" move and S6 AP3 flame without the opponent being able to do anything about it. Plus they have Av13 at the front. Too good at too few points. If I did this to someone - I think I'd take not too much please out of it - but you can guarentee tourny players will use this to great effect.

If I set-up second then I just place the Baals in reserve, outflank them, move 12" from the side and flame his back line.

Have 2 of these Baals, carefully place them on the board each just off centre from the middle and get first go - you can get to any troop unit on the board with AV3 and pretty much roast them.

Mephiston - his only real downside is that he isn't an indep character + thus can be targeted - but with T6 (no instant death), 2+ armour save and 5 wounds!!! you have to again concentrate lots of firepower at him to kill him before he jump packs and murders you in combat with Init 7! WS7, S6(10) power weapon attacks. Stick him behind a rhino or cheapo jump packs troops to get 4+ cover save and he is again a heavy weapon target, sucking all long range power away from the rest of you vehicles + allows you to move up the rest of your force with ease. At only 250 points - maybe a little cheap for what he is and does........ - at least make him abaddon price @ 275

I'm sure there are lots of other nice combos out there aswell. Bring on the new Dark eldar codex please!!!!

Why would you really consider normal marines for a tourny - when you can spay paint them red?

Rant over - I'm to to buy 2 Baals :-)

aah, I'll play the buggers first and see how it goes.

Pete is right, need to play them a few times first but.... All codex are considered to break the game on release, then when people learn to deal with the new stuff they lose that idea. remember when the Ork codex first came out they where broken now they are just a solid list, or how bout the recent guard and nids both still have tons of rock hard options, lets see blood angels deal with Luke's Air cav list for example! As for rushing your Baal's forward, new deff rolla rules might make that a very bad idea!! D6 S10 hits its going down

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]I'm actully a litte disappointed with this codex because I think they have made Blood angels too good (and this is coming from someone that has access + can use them). They made the nids really good now too - but at least to be good it costed you points.

Hmm. I've only flicked through the Codex a couple of times, but my general feel is that they're good, but not cheap. Yes, they are a bit better than Vanilla marines, but then Marines are not taking the tournament scene by storm right now. A good player can win against anyone with them, but equally there aren't any recent Codexes which can't.

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Granted - you can argue that most things have their downsides in every unit however, in my view, any experienced player comes up with an army where the units compliment themselves. The blood angels can have combinations that makes them very hard to cope with and for cheap unit prices.

Yes and no. Nothing in there can't be dealt with by an opponent with a powerful balanced list. Power weapons and AP3/2 will still kill them dead. Well, except for...

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Feel no pain thunderhammer and storm shield terminators (Sang priest only costing you 50 points and is an Ind character - so can be attached).

I'll give you that. They are nasty. Having said that, they're not scoring, they're slow, which means you need a Land Raider to get there, and you're talking 600+ points. Oh wait, the LR can DS. That combo is v annoying, I agree. But again TH/SS Termies were the new ZOMG!!11! THE GAME'S BORKED unit for vanilla marines. They are good, but not an auto-include now people have got some games in.

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Death company - they are essentially the same as Khorne marines with 1 less leadership (which doesn't really matter as they are fearless anyway) but have feel no pain and are relentless (bolter hail then charge!) - oh and you can give them as many power fist upgrades as you want - oh they can have jump packs to.......

One phrase - Sternguard Veterans. Another supposedly OP unit that people now recognise are expensive for what they do. Yeah, FNP relentless Berserkers with PFs are great. They'll also cost around 500-600 points in a Rhino with a Chaplain etc. And they die like 15 point marines to power weapons / AP2.

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]The only disadv is they have 'rage', but to be honest most players will put them in a gunship or L.Raider (maybe on deep strike!) and get to choose the engagement anyhow.

I think you're underestimating how much of a drawback Rage is. cf WFB Frenzy.

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Baal predators. - oh my god!

They're good, but like any dangerous new unit, they'll run riot for a game or two, then people will get used to them and come up with counters.

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Mephiston - his only real downside is that he isn't an indep character + thus can be targeted - but with T6 (no instant death), 2+ armour save and 5 wounds!!!

Good, but not invincible. And again, if you think 250 points isn't much for 1 model, you're playing too much Apocalypse

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Bring on the new Dark eldar codex please!!!!

Now THIS is a sentiment I can get behind!

(02-04-2010 01:23 PM)robmcd Wrote: [ -> ]Why would you really consider normal marines for a tourny - when you can spay paint them red?

Just had some good lulz there.

Don't you remember people saying:

New Dark Angels book: Why would you really consider normal marines for a tourny - when you can spay paint them green?
New Templars book: Why would you really consider normal marines for a tourny - when you can spay paint them black?
New Space Wolves book: Why would you really consider normal marines for a tourny - when you can spay paint them Grey?
New Vanilla Marines book: Why would you really consider Dark Angels / Templars / Space Wolves marines for a tourny - when you can keep them Green / Black / Grey and call them something else?

Sorry, I don't mean to be dismissive, I think there is some good stuff in this book, and I agree there may be some very good combos. I suspect, however, that as happens every single time a new book comes out, people try to break it and theoryhammer it to bits. When we've got some games under our belts I suspect we will find they are pretty well balanced. (And if you want a game against the premier MEq-shredders in the game, I'll bring my Dark Eldar to chew on you for a while... )

I take what people say on board - it was meant to provoke discussion anyway! - its good to see that people have responded so quickly.

I guess my underlying point is that - OK, everyone can think of a unit or a type of army that can take out each one of these units - you always can.

If I knew upfront I was going to face BAngels or any marine based army, I'd tailor my army to suit and prob have a good chance of at least drawing if I played well and rolled fairly - fair enough. However in my experience - when you play in big tournies you force needs to be able to cope with anything thrown at you, when I haven't taken balanced list I've paid the price by coming up against an army that nukes mine.

In my opinion, this is why the standard 6-9 chaos oblits with 2 lash prince do so well - it can usually cope (on average) with most things with the same army list. Over the past number of years there has usually always been a chaos marines player in the top 3 of the GTs (if not being first 1 or 2). In my view the Chaos marines list has allowed a combo that has been overpowered compared to other lists (until recently with the new Space wolves codex). I'm constantly seeing the same type of army + unit choice filling out the top 10 (with a few others of course) year after year. One year a D.E player came second - it was fantastic!! :-)

I'm just seeing things + combos in this BA codex that smack me of another GT dominating army that can edge out other army lists.

Looking through the codex with the overall enhanced speed (fast vehicles) and toughness (feel no pain) I think the Angels player has a plethora of things to choose from to make a balanced army that is very destructive, fast, versatile and durable. I'm not saying they are unbeatable (I apologise if I gave that impression) as other army lists can do alot of these things but I think that a carefully crafted blood angels list will prevail on average better than most other lists because it has a really good balance of choices that can cope with most average lists and extreme armies (at least giving you a chance of drawing).

Anyway - time will tell - lets see if Chaos fill this years GTs again or whether B.angels take more top spots!

(I don't pay apocalapse :-) - but wouldn't mind giving it a go at some point)

I think the new BA dex is really quite broken. I feel that any units you choose from create a competitive list if you like it or not

The special characters are far too expensive, a cheap 100 pt libby is all you need.

Troops, the only units should be assault marines with no jump packs in rhinos and razorbacks (discount is sooo good). Occasionally add a priest or two if you have the points.

I think you then want maybe a 1-2 baal pred purely for scout, but keep them cheap (playtesting will be required to see if they are worth it though).

For heavy support 1-2 Vindicators is compulsory in the list purely for its 12" move and stil able to fire.... thats broken.

My brother (sharan) is planning on taking a BA list to a tournament in May, as BA was his first army before his Tau. His list is solid and gave my CSM lash and eldar some tough games.

My choice of the broken things: Fast Vindies, Fast rhino/razorbacks, Priest with 6" FNP/furious charge bubble, 2 special weapons in each assault squad (not so much!).

In terms of GT, i think that BA will be on par with faster armies like eldar/air cav guard but will still struggle against top tier CSM and Ork builds. Sadly i see tournaments with marines painted green/orange/blue/black/etc. but using the BA dex...

First of all the author of the Blood Angels codex is the same guy who broke WFB with his Army Book: Daemons!

From a sales point of view I think its ok to have Marines be the broken army in 40k, because of the following, the fluff, and the huge amount of toys addons and accessories available to them. Its the army that will sell the most amount of kits.

I agree that the book is broken, but not because individual units are broken (BTW the Baal also can ram pretty good being fast). The reasons they are broken are the following:

1. Every unit is killy. Some codexes have units that are kind of lame but you have to take them because their dedicated transport is good, or because they allow you to take something else thats good (gaunts -> tervigon) or because they are mandatory troop/hq. You can make tons of lists with blood angels where every single unit is quality and killy. Assault marines for example. Its not that the discount on transports is sooo good, because the difference is only 25 points. Its the fact that the assault marines inside are very killy with 2 attacks and it allows you not to take ANY regular tactical marines which in my opinion are horribly overpriced and paying for underutilised versatility. In the same way that Space Wolves is powerful because it doesnt have to take ANY tactical marines, and Grey Hunters can actually kill stuff in close combat, just like assault marines.

2. Extremely well rounded and versatile. Some aremies have achilles heel or blind spots in the form of limited anti tank, limited ability to mechanise, limited mobility, or limited psychic defense. The beauty of this codex is that it allows you to take a theme, run with it, and still provide you with the necessary tools to create a powerful and balanced army. Even beyond the fact that some units have crazy good abilities (and they do) or some other units have crazy cheap points costs (and they do) other codexes have the same but are limited by force org restrictions (Tyranids being a great example where Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, and to some extent Venomthropes all compete for 3 elite slots). For example:
you have the chaplain both as HQ and elite.
you have predators both as fast atk and HS
Sanguinary Guard and Honor Guard are similar and are HQ/Elite
you have dreadnoughts as both elite, HS and troops (wtf!)

Whatever you want to take does not preclude you from taking other things that you need to round out your list. I wish all codexes were like this.

I think based on this flexibility alone, I will probably start blood angels myself soon.

I'm still 'so - so' about the fast vindicators - better yes - but you still have to get your Vidi exposed within 24" away in order for it to be effective. Leaving it exposed to move and fire meltas and my Wolf lord with thunderhammer on thunderwolf.

To be honest when I read the Wolves codex I didn't think - 'over powered' - I thought better but not supercombos for cheap points - With Bloody Angels - the combos really come out and hit you as "wow they're allowed that!.

I'd like to see what the b. angel players start playing with....... Anyone want a game who has them? I'm certainly going to re-think my backline of long fangs for playing tornies + generally against B. Angels given b.Angels will be flavour of the month and the move 30" - kill my troop back line - not too much I can do about it without seriously disadvataging my set-up 'baals'.

Seriously - Baals give magnificent tactical advantage during set-up.
If you have a devi squad or equivalent - you are really going to have to think about your set-up - when playing against them - probably compromising it from what you'd generally do.

What really hit me about this codex is that it put combos together for Marines that I've certainly been wishing for a superhard - uber versatile army: A cheap flame storm cannon that can get to the enemy very quickly is never to be underestimated unless to play full mech or termy heavy.

I agree generally with Kiran and Saryns comments - Considering the D.E codex is coming out this year - I hope the same dude who did the "Bloody" Angels codex is going to revise DE to give a robust antidote to the general uprising of mecho armies + this epic codex thats just been released.

If by any chance you are reading this Blood angels Codex writer dude: Since you've given Thunderterms feel no pain; a fast predator a scout move; jump packing dreadnaughts, antimelta fast moving troop and naught carryng gunships; 20 point khorne marine equivs with feel no pain and mulipower fists options!!!!! - I want [Wish list]

Dark eldar raiders with front AV11 or 12 still with dark lance and night shields for say 70- 80 points to stop bolters bringing my black birds down

Scourges with dark lances that can move + fire - seriously why give scourges dark lances.... I can only think of 1 reason - running away!

Jet bikes squads with multiple splinter cannons

If you really want to break D.E - make the shadow field 2+ continuous. :-) - I'd love this!

If you make D.E equally as hard - I'll forgive you

My brother can give you a game Rob, sometime in May after his exams as we are going to open war in nottingham on the 29th, we got the codex yesterday and have been working on some list, the choice is immense. Our porblem atm is choosing between only assault termies or assault termies and DC....

I'd say assault termies and death comp - against orks, the assault termies will kill but will get bogged down. DC are basically khorne marines - which are great for getting rid of ork hordes. - having both gives you something for killing different things.- plus they are only 20 points each!

look foward to playing them!

I love that my marines are painted red...
Okay, so I will have to buy some of the BA models to make it more representative but hey!
Successor chapter here we go! ;D

That's for when I'm bored of codex marines ofc