So, what do you make of this business about armies only being allowed a 25% character allowance? Isn't this going to ruin some forces - particularly Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings who rely heavily on their characters to carry the rest of the army? And won't this mean that certain things will never be seen again - Star Dragons, Chaos Lords on Dragons, Second generation Slann, Bloodline Vampires...
Do you think that this kind of forced composition is a good thing? I'm quite partial to a bit of Herohammer, if I'm honest, as I cut my teeth on the first Kirby Box (5th edition?) which was very character-dominant - but it's an eggs-in-one-basket approach, one good cannon shot or nasty spell and your army can be ruined, so I don't necessarily think that Herohammer is game breaking.
I dunno. Any thoughts?
Isn't Army comp in each army book?, It may be that they change it on an army by army basis rather then you all get 25%. orcs could get a lot of characters for that! also how will it effect lords can I take 2 now if its under 25%?
The general rumours are you will be getting 25% but also slots. So stop armies spamming cheap heroes.
There is also a rumour the 25% does not count heroes you have to take like the TK ones
Another new rumour has also appeared but does not have any trustworthy rumourmongers to support it so take with a pinch of salt and that is that some armies will get a rule in the rulebook changing there %.
Another rumour is that GW want you to play 3000pt as a standard game (damn that will be alot more rats to paint)
Having not played a single game of WFB I am not really sure how the meta game is right now.
If people want to field dragons it looks like its going to be there whole Lord/hero points taken up.
Right now my Skaven army has 586 of its points in Characters. 1 Warlord on Warlitter, 2 lvl 2 warlocks and 1 lvl 1 warlock. I dont see this as being overpowered and it fits my theme.
I could remove the one of the warlocks and be fine but then I lose the doomrocket.
I was looking at a post like this on Warseer and right now the armies people think will be most effected are Lizardmen, Vampire counts and TK as well but they are meant to be get a new book soon.
Daemons which seem to be the most overpowered army according to a bunch of posts I saw, can still field Skulltaker and 2 hearlds on Juggers so it does not seem to change them other than they cant field a Greater Daemon.
So with this rule and the other rumour that you cant have 2 of the same units for Rares I dont think we will see many big monsters which is a same as most of them have awesome models and this is a fantasy setting.
In a 2000pt game you will get 500 pts for heroes how much does a fully tooled Vampire/Chaos/HE dragon/Slann etc normally cost ?
Right now I cant really say if its going to be a good thing or not.
Well, a Slann can reach up to 635pts or thereabouts, and a Chaos Lord on Dragon is 570 before equipment. I mean, granted, you'd be daft to include either in 2000pts forces, but in 3,000 that doesn't leave much more for support characters, for example. And many special characters come up to the 500pt mark or over. Are these choices now to be relegated to mega-games?
I dunno, we'll see when the book arrives, but I'm concerned that it's going to homogenise the game a little too much: will all armies simply consist of: core block A with hero, core block b with hero/mage, heavy cavalry, outriders/fast cavalry/beast, one unique thing? Are these rules decisions forcing players hands a little too much than is necessary?
Im going to wait for the rules before I buy any minis at all now!
I was gonna buy my first 200pts for tale of x but if they do something daft like raise pts to 3000 standard and mess with comp so its not as fun with smaller games then im gonna ditch WHF as too expensive! Im already not happy with 20 gores setting me back £30 (obv id use Gifts for geeks for 20% off) were as 20 Ork boyz is only £24.
I need more troops for WHF then WH40k anyway so if they raise standard pts to 3000 they can go bum themselves!
So far the rumours make it look like the game will be just the same at small value other than no mass killy lords on large mounts.
The only reason to move it up to 3000 is if you want Dragons or greater daemons.
So I think we will be fine.
The most reason people take heavily upgraded heroes is to deal with other heroes I feel, but as everybody will have the 25% cap I don't think we will miss 500+ Heroes that much.
If we really dont like the 25% there is nothing stopping us ignoring it
Edsmasha I have a upopenned old beastherd box the one with gors and ungors I would be willing to sell to you cheap if you want for say a pint or two.
(15-05-2010 11:40 AM)Talos Wrote: [ -> ]Edsmasha I have a upopenned old beastherd box the one with gors and ungors I would be willing to sell to you cheap if you want for say a pint or two.
Ooh! Could I get a couple of heads from that before you give it to Paul?
Yea I am sure I could split it up. I will look in my bitz box when I get home, I have a large number of old beastmen bitz as I was planning to make a Khorne beastmen Traitor guard army for 40k but never got it off the ground.
Problem with the 25% cap is not that it's a bad idea to reduce herohammer, it's that it hits some armies disproportionately hard. It does nothing at all to balance the game, because the armies that actually need to be toned down are hardly affected at all. Actually, arguably the reason it's a bad idea is because the whole suggestion that WFB is currently herohammer is completely fallacious.
Daemons - OK, no more infinite hatred bloodthirsters at 2k. So what? They can still take pisstaker, or just three standard heralds, potentially one of them a BSB with choice of stupid banners, and two or all three at level two. DoC lists are still going to be top-tier because everything in the bok is too good, not because it's Greater Daemons that put everything out of kilter.
Dark Elves - OK, so the 'Dragon Lord plus everything else dancing away from you' build will probably go. Instead they'll just take another 3-400 pts of shades / dark riders and be even more boring to play against.
In contrast, Lizardmen are a good army who suddenly become extremely one dimensional. Skaven likewise. This is not a rule that will tone them down, it just removes their ability to take the fun stuff. In other words they're still going to be the next best armies after DoC/DE, but less fun and varied to play with or against.
VCs and TKs - oh God. I'm so glad I don't own these armies. They are books written specifically to work in a way that requires a lot of points in characters.
Warriors of Chaos - as Tim says, a naked lord on dragon is 570 pts, so you can't get him in even at 2250 pts. I use one of these guys all the time. Not against certain lists (Ogres and O&G because it becomes a pointless exercise) but often. I also often use a 740 pt build for him. I will never again be able to take this model, one which I spent a lot of money, time and effort into converting and painting. Is this something that will improve and balance the game? The WoC dragon lord build is so bent that it needs blocking? Really? Again, in my view this is not something that will much bother the more powerful armies, but does adversely affect many of the already mid-to-lower tier armies.
WFB is a great game, but 7th edition is full of errors, inconsistencies and over-complicated rules. If they could do with WFB what 5th did for 40k, I would be back in man-love with GW. If they could actually do something to balance back out the armies as well, then it's Christmas come early. Instead we get 25% on characters. I cannot describe how bad an idea I think this one is. Will be out of WFB permanently if this happens. Thank Slaanesh and Orboros that new books are coming for my two other main armies.
Yes, this was my thinking: I don't think Warhammer is currently biased towards Herohammer at all, in fact, I think it's set to dull. I look at armies and they all look the same, where's the giant, cool fantastical stuff?
Hmm, anyway, let's see what the rule-book brings, I guess.
Does anyone have any idea why it's so huge?
(15-05-2010 12:28 PM)Talos Wrote: [ -> ]Yea I am sure I could split it up. I will look in my bitz box when I get home, I have a large number of old beastmen bitz as I was planning to make a Khorne beastmen Traitor guard army for 40k but never got it off the ground.
Cool! Ta! I'm looking for three of the ungor heads with the curled horns and pierced septum.
@Talos
Sweet cheers! they will be ideal unit fillers!
@Tim
you can have any and all spare heads, if you want ill sort you out new heads too as I go
There was a rumour of a ravaging hordes style lists in the back, but I think that has been debunked.
It could be all the scenarios but its still around 100 pages larger than the current rule book.
Dont think it can all be rule changes.
I also heard something about Ally rules which will be fun for some armies but again not 100% sure.
Its coming out in less than 2 months and we dont know much, GW's really is keeping it under wraps.
Cool - cheers, Paul. I just need the three, though.
Here's just a few thoughts i had about the 25% cap. At this point I should say I havent played WFB for 15 years and I am just returning to the hobby.
The 25% point cap does limit the massive creatures at the 2250 point games which could address some balance back. If you really want a big dragon in your army you possibly still could but you wouldnt have room for anything else in this slot and you would be limited with the items you could take - this limits the number of super hard single models moving round the board cleaning up. As far as armies such as Demons, there could be a limit on duplicating your choices, for example once you have a Lv 2, you cant have another one. The book sounds like its going to be a big one so it could well feature sections specific to each army outlining certain rules for certain armies which are different from the core rule. An example of this could be for Tomb Kings, if they are going to be hit hard by the points cap in Characters, they could use points from there Rare/Special slot to spend on lords/heroes. This could lead to armies being more fluff related as all the armies would have slightly different army comp.
I also think a cap on the same type of units in each of the slots could be implemented to stop spamming. As far as the DE dropping the dragon and in stead loading up on anoher unit of shades - if you couldnt duplicate a unit in the special and rare slots it would make for more varied forces - possibly?!
Just a few thoughts - I guess we will have to just keep guessing until the book arrives
Dan
I was thinking about this 25% thing today and I think there is more to it than we are reading. At the end of the day we all know that GW wants to sell minis. THey are not going to just drop the new dragons and massive minis they have released to limit characters. I am guessing that the errata for each of the lists will help address this, plus new books been released. Also, they would not be able to do this with TK and VC since they need the characters for keeping the army alive. Also, they made the screaming bell/plague furnace kit, they will want people to use as many as possible, and with 25% this is not possible, since a plague furnace is 250 naked. Maybe they are planning on making it 25% but do not include mounts.
Seriously, I'd wait until i see it in print.
I'm guessing it's actually a 25% cap per model.
ergo no dragon mounted L4 mage with helmet of spankiness in a 2,000 point game. That i can live without.
Slots? What like the points in a army allowing you to take so many lords and hero's? gosh, i hope we don't... oh.
Hopefully i can spam funny suicide gobbo lords again.
Calm down! let's just wait.
Well according to the rumours GWs will be holding games from this weekend using the new book. Not sure if they will have the book in store or just some bits of paper or something. If I have time will go to my local down here in southampton and see if its true.
Another rumour I heard is 25% Lords and 25% Heroes making it 50% like it was in 5th or 6th. So 500 on Lords and 500 on Heroes but that could all be wrong.
Before the BA codex came out there where so many rumours and about half of them where not true.
Well according to people who have played the trial games at GW it is 50% for characters, but is split so that it is 25% Heroes 25% lords.
So in a 2000 pt game you can spend 500 on Lords and 500 on Heroes.
Slots have also gone for characters so I think you can actually take alot more characters than normal.
Pete will be pleased! Silly Goblin hero spamming!
Thats half your army on lords/heroes!! where is the balance???
It's always been like that, more or less. I started playing in 3rd edition, and 50% was the maximum allowance for characters. Even when they changed the system and started restricting by number, if you go through your lists you'll see it's the same approx. I like this 25/25% and I hope they keep the numbers limit as well.